General Sixers Chat -  THIS CONTENTIOUS IGUODALA CONTRACT ISSUEnotify me whenever anyone posts in this discussionSubscribe  
 
From: jrthebeat  Nov-2 8:35 am 
To: ALL  (1 of 78) 
 49903.1 

Lots of posters here complain about the Iguodala contract.

Too big! we bid against ourselves! he isn't worth it! can't shoot!

Putting aside whether or not u like or loath him - think he's worth it or not, consider this:

unlike many NBA players he really has improved every year. If he continues to grow as a man and a player that long contract will be good for us - not a burden.

if he breaks down, turns bad or stops improving then the haters may be right

but if he carries on as he has so far he will still be worth it

the big thing everyone forgets is that if he had walked, offended that he didn't get what he feels he is worth, after exceptional service to this team and this city, what would happen then?

who would replace him?
who would want to come here after seeing how we treat our own?

after the way the Malone relationship ended?
after the way the Dr J relationship ended?
after the way the Barkley relationship ended?
after the way the Iverson relationship ended?

see any free agents dying to come to exciting sunny contending philadelphia?

we need to grow and keep our own because there are no superstars knocking down our door to play here nor is there likely to be

 
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From: pgh_76er  Nov-2 9:38 am 
To: jrthebeat  (2 of 78) 
 49903.2 in reply to 49903.1 

People complaining about the Iguodala contract fall into 3 categories, in my opinion:

1) People who just personally dislike something about Iggy or his game and therefore intentionally ignore his production (which is commensurate with his salary)

2) People who don't understand much about basketball finances and/or player value

3) Mad-scientist wannabe GM's who value cap room over all else so they can fictionally sign like 12 free agents.



Edited 11/2/2009 9:39 am ET by pgh_76er
 
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From: NinaC  Nov-2 9:55 am 
To: pgh_76er  (3 of 78) 
 49903.3 in reply to 49903.2 

Your explanation seems a bit of an oversimplification.
JR is personalizing...it isn't about fan love/hate for Iggy. It is about team building and that's at least half financial...don't see why you feel that salary isn't a worthy discussion topic.
Ex. We have a 13 man roster right now....that means the extra couple of million aren't being spent even if it really did matter. Iggy's and Brand's escalating salaries do affect what can/will be offered to Thad and Speights and what kind of bench we'll have.

 
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From: pgh_76er  Nov-2 10:16 am 
To: NinaC  (4 of 78) 
 49903.4 in reply to 49903.3 

I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I'm just characterizing the arguments I've seen that have the premise that the Iggy contract is bad, not saying that the conversation is somehow invalid. I'd love to hear good, valid reasoning why Iggy is overpaid.

I have not seen one "Iggy is overpaid" post that actually looked at his production, overall contribution to his team, durability, marketing impact (which has a direct correlation to salary I'd think) or other actual factual factors, compared it to others at a similar salary level, and came up with a valid conclusion that Iggy is being paid more than what he's worth to the team.

The posts I've seen are along the lines of like "Trade Iggy and Brand for 6 GSW players" (Mad Scientist GM looking for expiring contracts to get the next big thing). The vague "Iggy's a 3rd or 4th option" (Don't like Iggy or his game), and the "Iggy sucks" (don't seem to understand the game). I haven't read every post ever made, but this is the sort of stuff I usually see on this topic. If I'm missing some insightful analysis on this, I'd love to see it.

The facts seem to be that Iguoldala averaged 18-5-5, gets a couple steals, plays solid defense, hustles on the court, and without a star on the team manages to drag this team to the playoffs. He's the center of their marketing - not that things are going very well there, but he's the guy they decided to feature in their efforts so they had to make some sort of commitment. Compared to others at his salary level, his production is near the top. I've not heard good arguments disputing any of this - hence my characterizations.



Edited 11/2/2009 10:18 am ET by pgh_76er
 
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From: philly262  Nov-2 10:21 am 
To: NinaC  (5 of 78) 
 49903.5 in reply to 49903.3 

Iguodala right now isn't even in the top 5 paid swingman in the league right now.

People are saying he's getting "paid like a superstar"

Which might have been true in 01, when the CBA was different, but now in 10, salaries have increased, and 12 million is 3rd banana money.

And that's exactly what Iguodala is getting.

 
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From: Hobbes  Nov-2 10:29 am 
To: philly262  (6 of 78) 
 49903.6 in reply to 49903.5 
Would you kindly name which five you're referring to?
 
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From: NinaC  Nov-2 10:30 am 
To: pgh_76er  (7 of 78) 
 49903.7 in reply to 49903.4 

<<He's the center of their marketing - not that things are going very well there, but he's the guy they decided to feature in their efforts so they had to make some sort of commitment.>>

No knock on Iggy (ownership pumped him up and offered the money)...but WHY do that and then expect fans not to be critical ????????????
My understanding from back in the day that Billy King started down this road is that the Sixers were going to build a team in the fashion of the then successful Pistons...no $16-$18 million dollar contracts....no franchise stars.
All that we get with overspending is incomplete rosters and bench players like Willie in the starting lineup.

 
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From: NinaC  Nov-2 10:35 am 
To: philly262  (8 of 78) 
 49903.8 in reply to 49903.5 
My first comment to JR that led to this discussion was that Stefanski made a mistake to offer an escalating contract...Iggy's $12 milllion isn't the issue...the $15-16 million down the road when combined with Brand's $18 puts serious spending limitations on a team that already refuses to spend.
Why shouldn't Iggy's contract be viewed in relation to the entire team's salary?
 
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From: philly262  Nov-2 10:39 am 
To: Hobbes  (9 of 78) 
 49903.9 in reply to 49903.6 

Kobe
T-mac
Micheal Redd
Peja
Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Richard Jefferson
Ak-47
Vince Carter
Dwayne Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Lebron James
Larry Hughes
Jason Richardson
Brandon Roy

My bad I just did 14, not 5, those are all sg/sfs who get paid more money than Iggy.

I could have added some pg/sgs and that would have extended the list to maybe 17.

 
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From: philly262  Nov-2 10:42 am 
To: NinaC  (10 of 78) 
 49903.10 in reply to 49903.8 

Iggy's contract should max out at 15.5, if he takes the player option.

Except for the final two years his salary will be right at 12-13 million.

Year 5 and 6 it'll be at 14.5 and 15.5, and by that time Brand will be off the books.

 
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From: pgh_76er  Nov-2 10:53 am 
To: NinaC  (11 of 78) 
 49903.11 in reply to 49903.7 

Why they decided that is a good question. My personal guess is that it was backlash from the Iverson era. Many were fed up with Iverson - the perception (not saying it's true) was he was selfish, ballhog, not a good teammate, etc. So maybe when the organization jettisoned AI, they decided to feature a guy who's game is almost opposite? AI was excellent at 1 thing, scoring. Iggy is good at a number of thing but excels at nothing. AI was perceived to sort of ignore his teammates and constantly play in one-on-one mode. AI2 relies on his teammates to get anything done on the court.

Just speculation on my part.

The financial/contract slot argument is another where the Iggy contract seems to make sense to me. Iggy makes what, 12 million this year? That's very reasonable given his production and value to the team I'd think - considering he's still the best player on the team. The contract increases by about a mil each year up to around 17 mil in 2013. As long as he continues with his current level of production, he's a tradable commodity throughout the life of that contract. That money in one very good player (who may make the all star team this year) is more valuable there than spread over a couple of scrubs that you can't do anything with.

The Brand contract is the one that may well be the albatross hanging around our neck for a few years. As the Sammy one is now -- unmovable.

 
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From: Hobbes  Nov-2 10:57 am 
To: philly262  (12 of 78) 
 49903.12 in reply to 49903.9 

Well, just a little inquiry into the list would lead me to the point Nina implies in another message: context is EVERYTHING.

Many of the swingmen you mention are superstars, and they can control and take over games. Iggy can't. Many of the teams on which these teams play are spending 80 and 90 million dollars a year on salary. Given our market, we can't. Many of the players are ticket-sellers. Apparently, Iggy is not. Given the timing, given the team's salary, etc. many of these players' signings did not/does not impair the teams' abilities to sign other top-tier players, to be legitimate competitors in the playoffs. Iggy's contract did and does.

Of course we can simply look at Iggy's salary and say, 'well, he's paid fairly when compared to other players across the league.' But what matters is what the signing does to the particular team, literally and figuratively. Evans, last year, when asked if Iggy is "a leader," said, "He's one of them. He's paid a franchise player's salary." Right or wrong, the impression held by at least some players on the team and many fans is that Iggy is a "franchise player." And for many of us, we have difficulty thinking of 'third-best players on better teams' as "franchise guys"--at least when the other franchise guys suck.

I'm not inclined--any longer--to say Iggy's not worth having on the team. Stats-wise, he looks like a good deal. But in the 76er context, he's just plain unsatisfying for a lot of fans for reasons that are both legitimate and silly. It's hard to root for a team, to pay $90 a ticket, to feel optimistic, when you're second-highest paid player is a border-line all-star (if, even, he is that).

Maybe, numbers-wise, decontextualized, his contract looks just fine. But when paired with the other crappy contracts, it looks like more of the same. It's perceived as bad negotiating, and given the team's records, I can at least understand why.



Edited 11/2/2009 11:00 am ET by Hobbes
 
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From: philly262  Nov-2 10:58 am 
To: pgh_76er  (13 of 78) 
 49903.13 in reply to 49903.11 

Iggy's contract maxs out at 15.9 mil

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/philadelphia.htm

http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/resources/09-10salaries.htm

Not 17, he's just a smigde under 16, his final player option year...

If he doesn't take the player option his final year he takes 14.7

 
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From: pgh_76er  Nov-2 11:01 am 
To: philly262  (14 of 78) 
 49903.14 in reply to 49903.13 
Thanks - I was too lazy to look it up. :)
 
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From: philly262  Nov-2 11:17 am 
To: Hobbes  (15 of 78) 
 49903.15 in reply to 49903.12 

I get what you're saying.

You're saying from a Sixers fan bubble standpoint, Iguodala is overpaid, because the team doesn't have any money.

But on a larger scale nba scale in which the Sixers are a apart of, he's paid right at his level.

The only really overpaid Sixers are Dalembert and Brand.

If those guys were paid to their production, the Sixers would be alot better off.

Brand and Dalembert are probably 7-8 mil a year type players, instead of getting 12 and 16.

Brand's signing was a mistake, if we would have signed someone like David Lee instead of Brand, we would have been much better off and saved about 6-7 million each year.

Allowing us to get a better back up SG in free agency.

The truth is most teams do bad in free agency. They either overpay, or they pick up the wrong players.

Teams with salary cap space are almost forced to sign good players.

Salary Cap space is constant because of increases in salary, by players already on the roster.

Now if the Sixers didn't sign Brand and just resigned Iguodala they probably would have had about 5-6 million in salary cap space.

And I don't know if you know, but the MLE counts toward your salary cap space, until you either renounce it, or use it.

So that would have let us with nothing, but basically a MLE level talent.

So the Sixers were basically forced to sign a player that year.

And they went for Elton Brand, I think they should have traded for someone like David Lee and ate a bad contract like Larry Hughes, instead of signing Brand.



Edited 11/2/2009 11:24 am ET by philly262
 
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From: bsktbller  Nov-2 11:32 am 
To: philly262  (16 of 78) 
 49903.16 in reply to 49903.15 

I dont think its really his pay that people are upset about its his status on the team. He is billed again and again as the franchise guy, this great leader and the best player on the team.

Sure he may be the "best all around player" on the team but he was already that when iverson was here and no one would have ever suggested that this was iggys team not ais.

The point im trying to make is that The best player on the team should be able to put a team on his back, make a shot when the team goes cold, be clutch in end of quarter and end of game situations. Iggy is none of those becuase he isnt a natural scorer and face it, thats what basketball is all about.

If im the coach of the sixers and we have to run a last second play i want the ball in lou or thads hands becuase they are quicker and more natural with the ball than iggy.

 
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From: philly262  Nov-2 11:40 am 
To: bsktbller  (17 of 78) 
 49903.17 in reply to 49903.16 

The last year, Iggy has been very clutch.

I mean he hit many clutch shots last year, and if you watched the Knicks game in OT win Iggy was hands were all over that, if he wasn't blowing by people for the coast to coast dunk, getting steals for easy baskets, he was feeding Thad for the easy layups.

Iggy might not come down the court and do ISOs to win the game, but does do things that win the game for us.

So many people want Iggy to be dominate the game like Kobe and Jordan do, he doesn't play that way, but it doesn't mean he doesn't dominate, he just doesn't do it scoring the ball.

 
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From: ROLEN76  Nov-2 11:59 am 
To: NinaC  (18 of 78) 
 49903.18 in reply to 49903.3 

You are brilliant. Thank you for saying that so I didn't have to! You must post here more, NinaC

:}

 
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From: ROLEN76  Nov-2 12:00 pm 
To: NinaC  (19 of 78) 
 49903.19 in reply to 49903.8 
Great Post. Again, NC
 
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From: ROLEN76  Nov-2 12:02 pm 
To: bsktbller  (20 of 78) 
 49903.20 in reply to 49903.16 
Thank you. Good post
 
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